Women gurus in Gaudiya Vaishnavism - ISKCON nominates first female diksha-guru

ISKCON Nominates First Female Diksha Guru

http://www.vnn.org/world/WD0309/WD11-8342.html

I met with Bir Krishna Maharaj today, and we discussed this among other topics. Apparently some ISKCON folks have a problem with a woman acting as a diksa-guru, quite possibly on account of the monastic roots of the movement.

Of course we know that there are countless vamsa-paramparas out there in which there are female diksa-gurus; a famous example would be the line of Prabhupad Prana Gopala Gosvami, in which a majority of the gurus are female. In addition to the countless less known great souls, I would like to put together a list of well-known female diksa-gurus in the tradition, preferably with a brief history included.

I found Jagadananda's article on Women Saints in Gaudiya Vaishnavism an excellent resource to start with, and the gist of what I found there is below, with some additions from my research. Any contributions would be welcome.

1. Sita Thakurani - The wife of Advaita Prabhu. According to the Prema-vilasa of Nityananda Das, Sita Thakurani had a woman disciple called Jangali. Nityananda-vamsa-vistara relates an account in which Virabhadra Prabhu, the son of Nityananda and Vasudha, once saught shelter of Sita Thakurani, desiring to become her disciple, but she sent him back home to instead take shelter of Jahnava Thakurani, her step-mother, the other wife of Nityananda.

2. Jahnava Thakurani - The wife of Nityananda Prabhu. Jahnava Thakurani came to be one of the greatest leaders of the tradition in its second generation. Virabhadra and Ramacandra, the sons (biological and adopted respectively) of Nityananda, were perhaps two of the most famous among her initiated disciples. Other well-known disciples of hers are Jnana das, the famous poet, and Nityananda das, the author of Prema-vilasa. Acting as a diksa-guru, she left a deep influence on practically all the lineages descending from Nityananda, in which female diksa-gurus are very common; so much so that some of them have a majority of women in their parampara.

3. Hemalata Thakurani - The daughter of Srinivasa Acarya. Hemalata Thakurani, a contemporary of Jahnava, was one of the prominent leaders of the tradition at her time. Among her numerous disciples, Yadunandan, the author of Karnananda, is particularly known. She is well known for ousting Rupa Kaviraja from the sampradaya.

4. Gaurangapriya - The second wife and a disciple of Srinivasa Acarya. She was a Cakravarti brahmin from Gopalpura, and initiated a number of disciples.

5. Krishnapriya and Vishnupriya - Two renunciate sisters, daughters and disciples of Narottama Das's chief disciple Ganganarayan Chakravarti. They lived at Radha Kunda for a period of time. The Govardhana-sila of Raghunatha das Gosvami was entrusted in their care by Mukunda das, a disciple of Krishnadas Kaviraja. According to Narottama Vilasa of Narahari Cakravarti, Krishnapriya accepted a number of disciples.

6. Ganga Mata Goswamini - A disciple of Haridas Goswami, the sevaite of Govindaji mentioned in Caitanya Caritamrita. Among others, King Mukundadeva of Jagannath Puri and a number of Jagannath's sevaites received diksa from her. She was also an eloquent speaker and explained Srimad Bhagavata for large audiences.

The lineage of Baghna Pada Goswamis in which Bhaktivinod was initiated has three female gurus.

1. (Nityananda Prabhu) Jahnava Mata
2. Ramacandra Goswami
3 Rajavallabha Goswami
4. Kesavacandra Goswami
5. Rudresvara Goswami
6. Dayarama Goswami
7. Mahesvari Goswamini
8. Gunamañjari Goswamini
9. Ramamani Goswamini
10. Yajñesvara Goswami
11. Vipina Vihari Goswami (1850-1919)
12. Bhaktivinoda Thakur (1838-1914)

Siddha Jagannath Das Babaji received diksa from Jagadananda Gosvami of Sringar Vat. I have seen his guru-pranalika, but unfortunately don't have it at my disposal at the moment. Does anyone have it at hand?

Exactly half of my diksa parampara is female, 6 out of 12. See my diksa-parampara

I bet there are dozens of lines with less-famous lady diksa-gurus among the first couple of generations of the numerous paramparas started by Mahaprabhu's parshadas.

QUOTE

I bet there are dozens of lines with less-famous lady diksa-gurus among the first couple of generations of the numerous paramparas started by Mahaprabhu's parshadas.

Of course Urmila devi dasi is an historical figure as the first ever female Iskcon Guru, but how successful and famous she will become remains to be seen. I wish her success, but if we observe the fate and the 'accomplishments' of her male colleagues over the past 25 years......

I have here what I was told is the diksha-pranali of Prabhupad Pran-gopal Gosvamiji, but am not confident if I have the right to publish it. Out of 13 names from Prabhu Nitai to Prabhu Pran-Gopal, there is only one other male and the other 10 are female. Jagat gives some explanation of this in comments in his article above.

One thing, the pranali begins with Sri Narayani Mata Gosvamini receiving diksha from Sri Jahnava Mata. I am wondering if this Narayani Mata is the same as the famous associate of Mahaprabhu and mother of Srinivas Acharya. Would she then qualify as another famous female Gaudiya Vaishnava diksha-guru, to be included in the list above? (The list includes Hemlata Thakurani who would be her granddaughter...)

*Those reading may wonder why I nominate Narayani Mata only, out of 10 others. The reason is that least some who have passed on the mantra did (and still do) so only within the family. The distinction has no spiritual validity. It is just that, while there have been so many Gaudiya Guruji of both genders, only some were famous public figures, as Narayani cetainly was.

Brajmohan Das.

I must add a note of caution and moderation here: At least in my Guru's family line the role of diksa guru for the ladies was limited to the family circle itself. They would give diksa to their sons and incoming daughters-in-law. The role of diksa guru to the outside congregation was reserved for men. As far as I know, with indeed the exception of Sita-devi (thanks Jagat), that was the practise all along. Also it must be noted, as Jagat pointed out, that these ladies initiated only a limited number of persons, with the possible exception of Jahnava Ma.

QUOTE(Advaitadas @ Sep 14 2003, 06:36 AM)

I must add a note of caution and moderation here: At least in my Guru's family line the role of diksa guru for the ladies was limited to the family circle itself. They would give diksa to their sons and incoming daughters-in-law. The role of diksa guru to the outside congregation was reserved for men. As far as I know, with indeed the exception of Sita-devi (thanks Jagat), that was the practise all along. Also it must be noted, as Jagat pointed out, that these ladies initiated only a limited number of persons, with the possible exception of Jahnava Ma.

That is also my understanding Advaitaji.

Do you think Narayani might be an exception too, since she is also quite famous?

QUOTE

One thing, the pranali begins with Sri Narayani Mata Gosvamini receiving diksha from Sri Jahnava Mata. I am wondering if this Narayani Mata is the same as the famous associate of Mahaprabhu and mother of Srinivas Acharya. Would she then qualify as another famous female Gaudiya Vaishnava diksha-guru, to be included in the list above? (The list includes Hemlata Thakurani who would be her granddaughter...)

QUOTE

Do you think Narayani might be an exception too, since she is also quite famous?

The whole thing hinges on the identity of this particular Narayani Gosvamini. Narayani is a rather common name in Bengal, it might not be the Narayani. Jagat may know. Jagat......?

No, the Narayani in the diksa-like of Pranagopal Gosvami is not the mother of Vrindavan Das Thakur. Srimati and Narayani were the two wives of Virabhadra Prabhu. However, thanks for reminding us of her, nevertheless. She makes a good example, too. Who's next in that line, after Narayani?

As for passing the mantra outside the family, I think it applies to all the six ladies I mention earlier on in this thread.

Achaa..., thanks Madhava,

next: Sri Govinda Priya Mata Gosvamini.

You met with Bir Krishna Swamiji?
I also chanted with him here just a few months back. He sure gets around.

Yes, I met with him. He comes over for a visit whenever he visits Finland. We also attended an informal program yesterday. He has valuable insights on the social evolution of religious traditions, I recall he is working on a book in which he reviews sociological studies and the current disfunctional system in place in most of ISKCON.

Haridas Das mentions several Narayanis:

(1) According to Jayananda's Chaitanya Mangal, a Narayani was Chaitanya's wet nurse.

(2) A Narayani was Narottam Das's mother.

(3) Srivas Pandit's niece and Vrindavan Das's mother. (Gauraganoddesa-dipika, 43)

(4) Virabhadra Goswami's wife.

(5) A disciple of Narottama Das, wife of Ganga Narayan Chakravarti.

There are no doubt others. I don't have Pran Gopal's Guru-pranali. I do remember Madan Gopala Prabhu telling me that Pran Gopal often spoke of what a powerful combination of motherly love/devotion with guru kripa/bhakti was.

====

I am glad to hear, Madhava, that you know Bir Krishna and that you approve of his progressive attitude. I do not know him personally, but I like that he has been brave enough to take this first, important step.

Apparently there is confusion over the identity of Narayani even among some devotees initiated in the line of Pran Gopal Gosvami. Some believe her to be the mother of Vrindavan Das Thakur. However, given that we are speaking of a vamsa line and a lady initiated by Jahnava, I find the identity of Virabhadra's wife the only logical option.

Bir Krishna is a progressive and broad-minded thinker who has many valuable insights in the realm of the social evolution within our tradition.

I was looking at the Audarya forum, where this topic is being discussed and observed a considerable difference in mood from that discussion and this one.

Once again I marvel: How is it that Raganuga bhaktas are more progressive than the others on issues like this? Is it because we are less attached to rules, or is it because we have more inquiring minds and have seen several sides of the coin?

QUOTE(Jagat @ Sep 15 2003, 11:41 AM)

Once again I marvel: How is it that Raganuga bhaktas are more progressive than the others on issues like this? Is it because we are less attached to rules, or is it because we have more inquiring minds and have seen several sides of the coin?

I guess most of us have had to go beyond our archaic black and white thinking, opening our mind to new possibilities. I am not at all certain whether you would get a similar response from people in India. The several sides of the coin theory sounds more sound to me.

QUOTE

I am not at all certain whether you would get a similar response from people in India.

That would depend. Mother Yashoda, the Guru of Krishnaprema is there, Mother Indira, the disciple of Dilip Ray (the biographer of Krishna prem) is there, there are Mother Mira and Mataji, two big Indian woman gurus operating in the west. Jagat, your Guru sister Bhakta Ma is the successor of Lalita Prasad and my Guru has approved Krishna Das, (Das is the surname) a female, as his successor. I would not expect a woman to become successful as a Guru amongst the babajis, given the appalling treatment Radhakund's widows and women in general receive from many of them. Indian women can take great positions. Indira Gandhi was the longest serving PM in India's history, 18 years in 2 runs, and several Indian State Governors are women nowadays. Indian women however, still know how to behave. Modesty is the ornament of the woman - lajja narir bhushan. Even in leading positions Indian women will behave more timidly than western women, who begin to behave more and more like men, not only socio-economically but even psychologically. I wonder what it will look like, a woman sitting on an Iskcon vyasasana, 1000s of people sitting at her feet, or dancing in ecstasy chanting her name.............

QUOTE(Advaitadas @ Sep 15 2003, 09:04 AM)

I wonder what it will look like, a woman sitting on an Iskcon vyasasana, 1000s of people sitting at her feet, or dancing in ecstasy chanting her name.............

Now there's a NEHKE article in waiting.

Indeed, it will have to become 'Guru Maharani' instead of 'Guru Maharaja'.

"Guru Devi" will be a little harder to chant than "Guru Dev." But all Radharani epithets will be convertible--"Swamini" "Ishwari," etc. Urmila is the name of an apsara, however. It doesn't seem quite suitable. I think we need a name change.

We saw "Whale Rider" yesterday - a very interesting film. It is about the young daughter of a Maori chief in New Zealand who struggles with predefined roles for females. She is always outshining the boys, even though she is told again and again that she should not compete with them on account of being a girl.

People here in America are still reluctant to trust women in a number of roles, like certain professions or in political positions in government, and we are supposed to be one of the most progressive societies in the world.

At least we can point to the Gaudiya tradition as leading the charge with all of those lady gurus in the various paramparAs. It is in stark contrast to Indian society in general , which tends to be repressive of the female population in numerous respects.

Hopefully that Bir Krishna Goswami fellow can make a difference.

I had given some thought to the "Maharani" issue earlier. Good to see it brought up. We do speak of "Tulasi Maharani".

I brought the issue to Maharaj's attention.

QUOTE

Will people be addressing Urmila as Guru Maharani instead of Guru Maharaja? Chanting "Jaya Guru Devi, Jaya Guru Devi"? It may sound amusing, but this is an issue that needs to be faced. Adopting words used in addressing men for addressing a woman would seem awkward to anyone with even a bit of insight into how the words are used in Sanskrit and Bengali literature. Even addressing women as Prabhu is questionable. Prabhvi would be the appropriate feminine form of the word. Misapplying such words may work inside ISKCON, but I believe it will seem odd to outsiders. I think this needs to be addressed, given that ISKCON is a preaching oriented movement which has to look respectable and at least to some extent normal in the eyes of the society, particularly the Indian audience in this case. "Urmila Prabhu" looks as weird as "Mister Urmila".

Of course we don't use Prabhu for either men or women, aside those who are Prabhu-vamsa. I suppose we don't address vamsa-ladies as Prabhu? Is there any particular address for them comparable to Prabhu used for men?

"Prabhvipada", now that'd be something!

QUOTE(adiyen @ Sep 14 2003, 10:36 AM)

next: [After Narayani, the wife of Virabhadra] Sri Govinda Priya Mata Gosvamini.

Am I wrong to assume that she is in the vamsa too?

The vamsa of Prana Gopala Gosvami is as follows: Virabhadra > Ramacandra > Radhamadhava > Gopikanta > Harigovinda > Sarvesvara > Laksmikanta > Krishnakisora > Atlokamohana > Pranagopala.

Govinda Priya must have been the wife of Ramacandra, as I fail to see why the diksa-parampara would have diverted outside the vamsa.

QUOTE(Ananga @ Sep 15 2003, 05:28 PM)

We saw "Whale Rider" yesterday - a very interesting film.

Did you like music in the movie Ramdasji?

QUOTE

Of course we don't use Prabhu for either men or women, aside those who are Prabhu-vamsa. I suppose we don't address vamsa-ladies as Prabhu? Is there any particular address for them comparable to Prabhu used for men?

At least in my family we were not even calling our male Guru 'Prabhu', but Baba. He would not allow awe and reverence to creep into the atmosphere. My Guru had no wife, so I have no personal experience in how to address the Guru-Ma, and the wife of his brother was totally on the background and passed away early also. As I said before, women in India stay on the background and are hardly addressed by anyone else than their husbands or children. I will, however, observe how my Guru sister who now acts as Guru is being addressed by her disciples. The female of Baba in Bengali is 'Ma'. I wonder though, if that fits in Iskcon's jargon of Mataji, Prabhu etc. Having said that, it IS the custom in India to call a female Guru Mataji. Mataji is a title of respect for elderly women, especially in Hindustan. Indians are always amazed that in Iskcon every young girl of 17 is called Mataji, as they are also amazed that any teenager there is a Prabhu, which means master. Madhava, you did not mention whom you are quoting there. Is it Bir Krishna Swami? He does get the smell that outsiders consider Iskcon an odd cult, doesnt he?

QUOTE

Govinda Priya must have been the wife of Ramacandra, as I fail to see why the diksa-parampara would have diverted outside the vamsa.

It depends on her place in the diksa parampara. I also have ladies coming out of nowhere on my list. They can also be daughters-in-law, no way that they are from outside of the family.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep 15 2003, 09:35 PM)

QUOTE(adiyen @ Sep 14 2003, 10:36 AM)

next: [After Narayani, the wife of Virabhadra] Sri Govinda Priya Mata Gosvamini.

Am I wrong to assume that she is in the vamsa too?

The vamsa of Prana Gopala Gosvami is as follows: Virabhadra > Ramacandra > Radhamadhava > Gopikanta > Harigovinda > Sarvesvara > Laksmikanta > Krishnakisora > Atlokamohana > Pranagopala.

Govinda Priya must have been the wife of Ramacandra, as I fail to see why the diksa-parampara would have diverted outside the vamsa.

This sounds reasonable, Madhava. Sri Krishna Kishora Gosvami is also the only male member of the diksha pranali before Sri Pran Gopal (after Ma Jahnava). Interestingly though, there are two ladies between in the diksha line but only one person in the vamsa line.

Please excuse my previous speculations about the identity of Narayani. I have learnt a lot from the discussion here.

What about Thakurani or Gosvamini, which we sometimes see? Are they in contemporary use, and if so, in which way?

QUOTE(Advaitadas @ Sep 16 2003, 05:40 AM)

Madhava, you did not mention whom you are quoting there. Is it Bir Krishna Swami? He does get the smell that outsiders consider Iskcon an odd cult, doesnt he?

No, I was quoting what I wrote to him. He does get the smell, though. I recall him once stating that the fact that people still join ISKCON must be proof of God's existence, because otherwise it doesn't make any sense. He is a social reformer, working hard to try to make ISKCON a bit more normal and respectable in the eyes of the society. Out of the Gaudiya Math monastic model, into a broad-based congregational religion, not at all unlike how it's always been out there among the rest of the tradition.

QUOTE

He does get the smell, though. I recall him once stating that the fact that people still join ISKCON must be proof of God's existence, because otherwise it doesn't make any sense.

I love that.

The Montreal temple has a history of repeated suicide. Every time anything good happens, someone nips it in the bud. An educated, fluently bilingual devotee named Prakashatma was giving classes that attracted and interested devotees. More people were starting to come. They stayed to listen. He was asked to speak on a daily basis for the two months he was staying in Montreal before returning to France where he is doing a theology degree.

Turns out his wife is a disciple of Narayan Maharaj. You guessed it, he's been reading Narayan Maharaj's books. He came into the temple room the other day and found a new brahmachari sitting in the speaker's chair. It was a putsch. So everybody got an hour of "Uh, we are not this body, uh. Krishna is God. Uh..." Prakashatma is out. Prabhupada is in.

QUOTE(Tamal Baran das @ Sep 15 2003, 11:10 PM)

QUOTE(Ananga @ Sep 15 2003, 05:28 PM)

We saw "Whale Rider" yesterday - a very interesting film.

Did you like music in the movie Ramdasji?

Yes. Quite splendid.

'prabhu' is one of those words that can be any gender - masculine, feminine or neuter. The ending for each case in its declension may vary by gender.

QUOTE

He does get the smell, though. I recall him once stating that the fact that people still join ISKCON must be proof of God's existence, because otherwise it doesn't make any sense. He is a social reformer, working hard to try to make ISKCON a bit more normal and respectable in the eyes of the society.

I sometimes wonder how some of these leaders still go on? I guess they have a lot of faith.

May I have permission to post the lists of female gurus found at the beginning of this thread? I think one was taken from Jagadananda's article and the other is Bhaktivinoda Thakura's diska lineage. I find myself a little impatient with repeated screams from some for scriptural examples of women who initiated disciples. These lists may satisfy some who are concerned about the gender issue. There are some other issues involved in the petition for her approval, or non-disapproval, or whatever ISCKON's GBC gives, but I'm not so interested in discussing them. However, I think some may be interested in some real history of our community.

Mahalo,
Babhru das

QUOTE(Babhru das @ Sep 17 2003, 12:40 AM)

May I have permission to post the lists of female gurus found at the beginning of this thread? I think one was taken from Jagadananda's article and the other is Bhaktivinoda Thakura's diska lineage.

Please be my guest, Babhruji. Yes, your idea of the sources is correct. I did add some minor details to the descriptions of the ladies at the beginning of the thread, but it is essentially drawn from Jagadananda's article.

There was some discussion on statistics of lady gurus in the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition. I noted down the numbers for seven guru-pranalis I am aware of. They are as follows:

1. Lineage descending from Jahnava Thakurani and Narayani Devi down to Prana Gopal Goswami, a respected acarya of the sampradaya in the early 1900's in Bengal: 2 men, 9 ladies.

2. Lineage descending from Lokanatha Gosvami and Narottama Das Thakura down to Siddha Sakhicaran Das Babaji: 10 men.

3. Lineage descending from Advaita Acarya and his son Krishna Mishra down to Nikunja Gopal Goswami of Navadvip: 6 men, 6 ladies.

4. Lineage descending from Jahnava Thakurani and Dhananjaya Pandit down to Kunjabihari Das Babaji: 13 men, 1 lady.

5. Lineage descending from Lokanatha Gosvami and Narottama Das Thakura down to Jnanananda Cakravarti Thakura: 10 men, 7 ladies.

6. Lineage descending from Jahnava Thakurani down to Tinkadi Goswami: 14 men.

7. Lineage descending from Jahnava Thakurani down to Bhaktivinoda Thakura: 8 men, 4 ladies.

This makes a total of 62 men and 27 ladies. That makes quite exactly a good 30% slice of ladies out of the total 89 gurus in the lines given above. It should give us an idea of the general pattern to be expected out there among our tradition.

Thanks, Madhava. I know that some will not be convinced by examples from many of the more traditional lines, but that's more their problem than mine. I don think, though, that Jagat's list and Bhaktivinoda's line should give most ISKCON members pause before they make a case against Urmila based on her gender alone.

(I tried logging on, but couldn't come up with a password that worked. that may be just as well, since I'm not entirely pleased with the goofy username I had. If I have reason to contribute more frequently, I'll probably register with my own name.)

VNN keeps up the series of quality articles. This is a low blow.

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0309/ET16-8347.html

What the author doesn't mention is that her husband is an IRG / Ritvik advocate who is fond of domestic violence. He even argues in its favor on his website:

QUOTE

BAD RESOLUTIONS?

The GBC Resolution Against Wife Beating

What is the vaisnava tradition?

What are Srila Prabhupada's instructions?

[One ISKCON temple president told me that it was common knowledge that Srila Prabhupada used to sometime joke about wife beating, and would quote Tulsidas: "Three things sound good beaten: a mridunga (drum), an animal (beast of burden), and a wife." He said, "In India, they wouldn't think anything of it."]

...

Etc.

I can't blame her for kicking the man out of the door, and without commenting on any of the other qualifications or disqualifications she may have, let us say that this certainly does not count among the latter.

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0309/ET20-8357.html

Well well, it seems that our "Dharma-yuddha das" was running his own show there, not representing either Urmila or her husband in his rant. Somehow I get the feeling that this DYD is a pseudonym for someone most of us know sadly well from our encounters with him in another Vaishnava forum on the internet.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep 21 2003, 02:07 PM)

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0309/ET20-8357.html

Well well, it seems that our "Dharma-yuddha das" was running his own show there, not representing either Urmila or her husband in his rant. Somehow I get the feeling that this DYD is a pseudonym for someone most of us know sadly well from our encounters with him in another Vaishnava forum on the internet.

Sparky strikes again!

QUOTE(Advaitadas @ Sep 12 2003, 09:55 PM)

Exactly half of my diksa parampara is female, not including my Guru's successor. That would make 7 out of 13. See my diksa-parampara

Dear Advaitaji,

I saw your file. This intrigues me to wonder what is the concept of "vamsa-parampara."

I have just got my head around the concept of a "diksa-parampara" (as opposed to a siksa-parampara

), and now I find that vamsa-paramparas are also traced.

Can I ask you, and all the other devotees, what is the point of tracing a vamsa-parampara? Is it a matter of pride, or is there any benefit (spiritual, institutional, or whatever) in tracing a vamsa-parampara. I know that a vamsa-parampara is tracing the family line all the way back to a parishad of Mahaprabhu's but what is the point of such a trace when the diksa-parampara is apparently important.

I hope no one thinks my questions are rude or argumentative in any way. I am asking in a curious mood so please do not get offended.

If Madhava likes, feel free to split the topic.

Dear Vaishnava das, this question is typical for persons from the west (I suppose that you are not of Asian descent) and for those who have been unknowingly indoctrinated by envious sects like the Gaudiya Math and Iskcon, who try to tear down the fibre of Vedic and natural laws. The presentation of Vamsa Parampara is of course for people who have faith in such institutions and that is badly lacking in westerners who do not have the Asian family culture. Please dont get me wrong here - I consider you a victim, not a culprit. The bottom line is that a descendant of the Lord is considered non different from the Lord. The Vamsa parampara presentation helps tracing back this divine heritage.
Even here, scriptural evidence can help create some faith.
Sriman Mahaprabhu said: atma vai jayate putrah — "So father, so son", or: "The child is the image of the father." (CC. Madhya 12.56) Lord Balarama said in Srimad Bhagavata (10.78.36):
atma vai putra utpanna iti vedanusasanam; tasmad asya bhaved vakta “O worshipable sages, the Vedas declare that one’s own self is reborn as the son, therefore let Romaharsana’s son recite the Puranas to you!” pituh putro yena jata sa eva sah (S.B. 9.20.21): “The son belongs to the father. Indeed, the son is the father.”
The descendant must have the qualities of the Lord from whom he descends, though, even here it is not merely by birth that one can claim non-difference with Nitai or Advaita. This is important to remember. These families are studded with qualified acaryas, but even the full moon is pock marked......

QUOTE

indoctrinated by envious sects like the Gaudiya Math and Iskcon, who try to tear down the fibre of Vedic and natural laws

In order to balance yin and yang, and to satisfy the wishes of the webmaster, I refer to A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami's purport of Bhagavad Gita As It Is, verse 6.42:

Birth in a family of yogis or transcendentalists—those with great wisdom—is praised herein because the child born in such a family receives a spiritual impetus from the very beginning of his life. It is especially the case in the acarya or gosvami families. Such families are very learned and devoted by tradition and training, and thus they become spiritual masters. In India there are many such acarya families,....... By the grace of the Lord, there are still families that foster transcendentalists generation after generation. It is certainly very fortunate to take birth in such families.

I suppose these westerners just don't understand Indian traditions.

But there's a practical side too. In the environment of repeated invasion and change, families in India have provided stability and security to preserve traditions which might otherwise have disappeared. The bottom line is that members of the family are willing to compromise for the sake of survival, while, for example, the members of a monastery might place their own sense of righteousness over the preservation of the unity of the tradition.

Harvard scholars have asserted that the preservation of the Rig Veda over thousands of years, by particular Indian families, is a wonder of the world on a par with the Pyramids of Egypt.

In China, the secrets of gunpowder and other technical innovations were originally preserved by certain families. It is the Asian way of preserving old traditions in a changing world.

I have a question regarding the relationship between the vamsa and diksha paramparas. If a hypothetical Guru from a family lineage initiates a disciple from outside the family, who then proceeds to initiate others him/herself. Is that to be considered a diksha or vamsa sampradaya? Just how do they relate?

QUOTE

If a hypothetical Guru from a family lineage initiates a disciple from outside the family, who then proceeds to initiate others him/herself. Is that to be considered a diksha or vamsa sampradaya? Just how do they relate?

There are countless rivulets of diksa paramparas emanating from the big rivers of Advaita's and Nitai's vamsa paramparas. It is mostly babajis who take diksa from a Gosvami that then give diksa to non Gosvami disciples. These are no longer vamsa paramparas but diksa paramparas. Actually as you can see Vamsa Paramparas are always separate, though chronologically parrallel with diksa paramparas in the same families.

Thanks Advaitadas,
A very prompt and clear answer. By the way, like your website.
Pete

QUOTE(Advaitadas @ Sep 22 2003, 12:17 PM)

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If a hypothetical Guru from a family lineage initiates a disciple from outside the family, who then proceeds to initiate others him/herself. Is that to be considered a diksha or vamsa sampradaya? Just how do they relate?

There are countless rivulets of diksa paramparas emanating from the big rivers of Advaita's and Nitai's vamsa paramparas. It is mostly babajis who take diksa from a Gosvami that then give diksa to non Gosvami disciples. These are no longer vamsa paramparas but diksa paramparas. Actually as you can see Vamsa Paramparas are always separate, though chronologically parrallel with diksa paramparas in the same families.

Good point. Our Baba (Tinkudi Goswami) comes in a vamsha started by a direct disciple of Nityananda, so that is a case of a line started by diksha received from the Nityananda vamsha, then became a vamsha line on its own.

Ours is a vamsa-parampara from Dhananjaya Pandit, a disciple of Ma Jahnava, coming down to Gopalcandra Goswami as a joint diksa/vamsa-parampara, then separating into a diksa-parampara with Kunjabihari Das Babaji.

OK thanks for the nice answers. Great, so it doesn't actually matter the difference betwen vamsa and diksa-paramparas. What matters is the actual diksa into the Gaudiya philosophy, to be considered an initiated Gaudiya Vaishnava.

Just to clarify, I am not of Western birth, but of Indian descent. (Assuming that bodily identification is important

)

P.S. Adiyenji, seems I started this mini-discussion before reading your latest mails, hehe. I'll reply to them as soon as possible.

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(Assuming that bodily identification is important )

Not in the ultimate end of course, but let's say a certain cultural experience with India is helpful. Indeed, birth in India is helpful, see the 5th Canto of the Bhagavat, where the devas pray for birth in India. After all, spirit is attained through matter (the material body, through its sadhana) isnt it? An Indian body is an excellent diving board. It seems, by the way, that Indian families are also getting less tight and people get more individualistic there as well nowadays. Hence perhaps your question about the importance of the Vamsa Parampara. It is actually meant for those with deep love and devotion for Nitai and Advaita - it will help them appreciate the vamsa gosvami as saksat Sitanatha etc.

QUOTE(Vaishnava-das @ Sep 24 2003, 11:50 AM)

Just to clarify, I am not of Western birth, but of Indian descent. (Assuming that bodily identification is important

)

What's your vamsa, Jay?

QUOTE(Advaitadas @ Sep 24 2003, 02:25 PM)

It is actually meant for those with deep love and devotion for Nitai and Advaita - it will help them appreciate the vamsa gosvami as saksat Sitanatha etc.

Of course I do not have even a trace of love for Gaur-Nitai,

but when I met young Sri Nitya Gopal Gosvami of the Nityananda Vamsa, I had the surprising impression that I was seeing Mahaprabhu or Nitai Prabhu in the flesh. He was dancing in kirtan before the deities. It was uncanny, as if the Chaitanya Charitamrita had come to life.

And I am a skeptic.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep 24 2003, 06:49 PM)

QUOTE(Vaishnava-das @ Sep 24 2003, 11:50 AM)

Just to clarify, I am not of Western birth, but of Indian descent. (Assuming that bodily identification is important

)

What's your vamsa, Jay?

I'm a Sindhi, the forgotten vamsa.

QUOTE(adiyen @ Sep 25 2003, 12:11 AM)

I met young Sri Nitya Gopal Gosvami of the Nityananda Vamsa, I had the surprising impression that I was seeing Mahaprabhu or Nitai Prabhu in the flesh. He was dancing in kirtan before the deities. It was uncanny, as if the Chaitanya Charitamrita had come to life.

And I am a skeptic.

Wow, that was very interesting to read.

I wonder if this translates into the "transmission of charisma" issue. Some points along these lines were earlier brought up by Advaitaji, that the son is the father, etc., but I wonder if it is true in spiritual terms as well?
In which case, it would be very fortunate to have darshan of someone in Advaita or Nityananda-vamsas.

QUOTE

I wonder if this translates into the "transmission of charisma" issue. Some points along these lines were earlier brought up by Advaitaji, that the son is the father, etc., but I wonder if it is true in spiritual terms as well?
In which case, it would be very fortunate to have darshan of someone in Advaita or Nityananda-vamsas.

Charisma, that's a fascinating term we have at hand.

Main Entry: cha·ris·ma
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek charisma favor, gift, from charizesthai to favor, from charis grace; akin to Greek chairein to rejoice -- more at YEARN
Date: circa 1641
1 : an extraordinary power (as of healing) given a Christian by the Holy Spirit for the good of the church
2 a : a personal magic of leadership arousing special popular loyalty or enthusiasm for a public figure (as a political leader) b : a special magnetic charm or appeal

I'll leave the question on whether spiritual realization can be inherited, and if so, to which extent, open. However, it is beyond doubt that much of the qualities of the parents are inherited. In a family lineage where spirituality has played a dominant role for decades, we can safely assume that both the body and the psyche of the progeny will be suitable vessels of spirituality. Call them people born with the silver spoon if you will.

I have another question for Advaitadas. In the link you gave me on 22/9 I notice that certain personalities have been initiated into both Vamsha and diksha paramparas. Does this mean they have been initiated twice? What, then are the relative statuses of their two gurus? Or are the two initiations really quite different things? I,m sorry if these seem like inane questions, but they've intrigued me.

QUOTE(Pete @ Sep 27 2003, 07:03 PM)

I have another question for Advaitadas. In the link you gave me on 22/9 I notice that certain personalities have been initiated into both Vamsha and diksha paramparas. Does this mean they have been initiated twice? What, then are the relative statuses of their two gurus? Or are the two initiations really quite different things? I,m sorry if these seem like inane questions, but they've intrigued me.

Advaitaidas left yesterday to Bengal for a month; I'm afraid he won't be around for a while.

Vamsa-parampara is not a succession by initiation, it is a family lineage. Think of it as their family tree. The last name you see on the list is the great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandson of Advaita Acarya.

Thank you Madhava. I see what you mean. But if one genetically inherits this link to Mahaprabhu, why is it necessay to take diksha? If this link, however, is culturally rather than genetically transmitted from one generation to the next, doesn't this lend some credence to the notion of Shiksha parampara?
I'm a little confused about this.

QUOTE(Pete @ Sep 28 2003, 07:29 PM)

Thank you Madhava. I see what you mean. But if one genetically inherits this link to Mahaprabhu, why is it necessary to take diksha? If this link, however, is culturally rather than genetically transmitted from one generation to the next, doesn't this lend some credence to the notion of Shiksha parampara?
I'm a little confused about this.

This is a geneological link, not with Mahaprabhu, but with one of his associates.

It is necessary to take diksha because diksa is the rite through which the initiate becomes engaged in worship of the deity. At the time of diksa, he receives a mantra which contains specific knowledge about his relationship with the deity.

I can't see how siksa-parampara is involved with this. At any rate, diksa-parampara by definition is also a siksa-parampara, because essential divya-jnana is transmitted in the guru-given mantra.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep 28 2003, 01:36 PM)

QUOTE(Pete @ Sep 28 2003, 07:29 PM)

Thank you Madhava. I see what you mean. But if one genetically inherits this link to Mahaprabhu, why is it necessary to take diksha? If this link, however, is culturally rather than genetically transmitted from one generation to the next, doesn't this lend some credence to the notion of Shiksha parampara?
I'm a little confused about this.

This is a geneological link, not with Mahaprabhu, but with one of his associates.

It is necessary to take diksha because diksa is the rite through which the initiate becomes engaged in worship of the deity. At the time of diksa, he receives a mantra which contains specific knowledge about his relationship with the deity.

I can't see how siksa-parampara is involved with this. At any rate, diksa-parampara by definition is also a siksa-parampara, because essential divya-jnana is transmitted in the guru-given mantra.

Good point.

The 'notion' of a siksa-paramparA has no credence outside of being implicit in the diksa parampara. If you read the eight verses of Siksastaka, then can you claim to be a siksa disciple of Sri Caitanya and then make disciples in this new paramparA on the strength of that 'notion'? Your paramparA would then be: Caitanya- You - Your disciples. That is no more outlandish than other claims of a siksa paramparA with no basis in a diksa line. Our acharyas' position is quite clear on this: That paramparA means transmission of diksa in an unbroken line. There has never been any mention of anything remotely resembling a siksa-paramparA by any of them.

QUOTE(Ananga @ Sep 28 2003, 09:37 PM)

Our acharyas' position is quite clear on this: That paramparA means transmission of diksa in an unbroken line. There has never been any mention of anything remotely resembling a siksa-paramparA by any of them.

Do you have a specific verse from any of the Acharyas that states this, and can you quote it please? I'm not challenging, just curious as always.

QUOTE(Vaishnava-das @ Sep 29 2003, 01:47 AM)

QUOTE(Ananga @ Sep 28 2003, 09:37 PM)

Our acharyas' position is quite clear on this: That paramparA means transmission of diksa in an unbroken line. There has never been any mention of anything remotely resembling a siksa-paramparA by any of them.

Do you have a specific verse from any of the Acharyas that states this, and can you quote it please? I'm not challenging, just curious as always.

I don't think there is a specific verse on this, but to find out their position, you can just look at the guru-parampara they presented themselves as belonging to. For example, Visvanatha has documented his guru-pranali in his Sankalpa-kalpadruma, as well as in his Sarartha-darsini. Baladeva keeps referring to the line of Rasikananda in his writings, honoring his diksa-guru Radha-Damodara Goswami, who was initiated in Rasikananda's branch. I've seen the diksa-pranali of Jagannath Das Babaji, I'll note it down next time I visit Vraja. GM's very own Bhaktivinod initiated others into a diksa-line descending from Ma Jahnava. The history is a clear enough indicator of their position.

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0310/ET07-8391.html

Sita devi raises some appropriate concerns in her article.

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There is no gender based restriction for a man to initiate others or to initiate his own son. But Suniti was restricted from being Dhruva Maharaja's diksa-guru [according to ACBS's purport] because:

1. she was a woman and;
2. she was his mother

It was not just a matter of a woman not being allowed to initiate her son as some suggest. Another consideration is with regards to second or brahminical initiation: how can a woman award a thread to a boy/man when she herself has none?

This would not pose an issue outside ISKCON/GM, given the fact that among the rest of the tradition, only pancaratrika-diksa is given, which does not involve giving upanayanam and brahma-gayatri. They belong to an altogether separate ceremony, and the priest performing the upanayanam for the young brahmin is not considered to be his diksa-guru. However, as we know, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati chose to merge upanayanam and pancaratrika-diksa into one single ceremony.

Of course the ISKCON approach to upanayanam also differs from the GM, given the fact that in GM, brahma-gayatri is not given to ladies.

Ah; thank you.